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DreamingOfAtlantis's Avatar

DreamingOfAtlantis got 1st place in all his 3 Bronze III heats and his first Silver heat ever!

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Just a note to FaeryLady: I haven't said a thing about his behavior and if it's reasonable or not or if you should dump him or not. I'm doing what I was trained to do when working in treatment: Keep the focus on YOU because YOU can control how you feel and what you do. You have no control over him and what he does, so there is no point in discussing him. The point was whether or not it was right to expect chivalry and just what would have been the chivalrous act in this case.


As for people telling you to drop him, I would suspect that your views and expectations were formed as you grew up with your family and you've found friends with the same views and expectations, whether they were appropriate or not (and I'm not going to judge them) so it's not surprising that friends and family would say to drop him, since that's not far from your view that he fell short on this issue.


I will say that it seems you have expectations of him that are not in line with who he is as a person. That doesn't mean you're right or wrong and I'm not saying that to pass judgement. It just seems you and he have different expectations and for that reason alone, it might be appropriate to examine the relationship and decide if it would work to continue it.
- November 26th, 2008, 10:42 pm
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yeoww wishes you all the very best!

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I view chivalry and courtesy differently - chivalryfor me is the "knight in shining armor" approach, like draping the $5,000 cashmere coat across the puddle for me to walk across :-) Courtesy, on the other hand, is the guy who offers me his hand to help me hop across the puddle! I don't ask for chivalry but courtesy is a requirement for me.
- November 27th, 2008, 12:18 am
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Interesting distinction yeoww. I agree, I wouldn't associate offering to contribute to a date to be chivalrous, I think it's courteous. Opening doors and pull out chairs would be chivalrous. I actually think that offering a hand to help a woman across a puddle would also be chivalrous.
- November 27th, 2008, 12:35 am
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The word "chivalry" is thus defined, as I'm sure everyone knows, as the "medieval knightly system with its religious, moral and social code; the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, like courage, honor, courtesy, justice and readiness to help the weak; a man's courteous behavior, especially toward women."


Any woman can hope for it. But it would be a most foolish hope. However, to expect it would even be more foolish. Things like gender feminism, the sexual revolution, moral relativism, the coarsening of language, the disappearance of manners and courtesy and heightening incivility, especially with regard to just about everything in our society and culture, has done far more than simply destroy things like chivalry.


Who would expect boys to grow into men, good men, when they are exposed to so much garbage (found abundantly, of course, inpopular TV shows,movies and other assorted mass media) from a very early age, an impressionable age, when they are notinculcatedregardingthe cardinal virtues,manners, civility, decency, respect, courtesy and so many other things absolutely required to make them not only men (and not just older boys or adolescents) but fundamentally good men, ones who may very well be chivalrous.


Alas, one cannotexpect this kind of culture and societyto produce chivalrous men, let alone gentlemen (and ladies). Sometimes in lifeone just has toaccept the next best thing because that's all there is and that's all there's ever going to be.


The truth may hurt butit may also setone free (unlessone prefers to be enslaved, like a beast in a guilded cage, because that's all some people ever want to be).


If any woman wants to be put on a pedestal, she'll likely have to do it herself. The problem with pedestals, however, is that often times things fall or get knocked off them.


- November 27th, 2008, 01:01 am
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lada2 maybe i should have not closed that door so hard, so quick

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why can't you just go AROUND the puddle???
- November 27th, 2008, 07:06 am
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pinz is away for a bit ... HAVE FUN.

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FaeryLady, wrote :

I am in a situation where I have recently asked a guy that I am dating to my company holiday party. I am a bit old fashioned and because I invited him I was prepared to pay for the evening. However I have expressed to him that my funds are very limited. I have recently decided that I cannot afford the night and have cancelled our date. I am very torn about this.On the one hand I know he did not have to pay since it was my invitation, but on the other I am very disappointed that he did not offer to help.


So my question is should women expect Chivelry or just hope that we come across someone who still has those values. I WANT to expect it, but I also live in the real world and know that not everyone thinks like this. I would LOVE some feed back on this....
.... hmmm, seems to me like you were 'testing' him. ie. you invite him, tell him you can't afford it, and then WAIT to see if he coughs up, he doesn't, so he FAILS.


To me, it seems, by what you describe, that he's just not into you. It has nothing to do with chivalry or his 'good manners'. Not in this instance.


You can be as 'old fashioned' as you want, expecting him to pay, but if you are doing the asking, you've got to be a bit more 'chivalerous' your Self.


If you genuinely 'like' this guy, try something that is a bit more within your price range, like a coffee shop.


For what it's worth, in my experience, men may SAY they like to be pursued, but most don't respond well to this. There is the 'air' of desperation about it, and that makes them cautious and careful. Just as women are when pursued by a man in whom they have no real interest.


If there is a 'click' from the onset that's a different story. At that point, 'finances' are seldom the 'issue'. So, be HONEST with your Self about what transpired here.


(Note: I've not read the reset of this thread to see if you 'explained' his and your behaviour further ... so, if I is 'off base', please forgive...)
- November 27th, 2008, 08:35 am
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What I have surmised from all this is you invited him to a company do two hours away. You then found out that you could not afford it, he hasn't offered to pay, leaving the party and driving home isn't an option but you would really, really like to go. It's clear that you couldn't do this alone anyway even if you hadn't invited him and then hoped he would pay for the hotel. It seems you are miffed at him because you would love to go to this party but can't.


It's a company party. Sure, it might be fun for you but for him probably not so since he won't know anyone there. I think you are being a little unfair to him.


It's nothing to do with chivalry or lack thereof. You invited him and then decided the expense was too much so oops, I have to cancel. Completely with no "but we could do this instead". And then said you have your son's birthday to pay for. Yes, our kids are important but with a little forethought this situation could have been avoided.
- November 27th, 2008, 09:38 am
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D_Lion - Ladies want to wring my neck - you have been warned!

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lada2 wrote :

why can't you just go AROUND the puddle???

Because the gal wants her date to handle this puddle, that puddle, every puddle, for her.



Some gals want this, some guys too, and they just need to find each other (but quit trying to change the rest of the world into their mold.)

- November 27th, 2008, 09:50 am
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DreamingOfAtlantis got 1st place in all his 3 Bronze III heats and his first Silver heat ever!

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D_Lion wrote :

lada2 wrote :


why can't you just go AROUND the puddle???

Because the gal wants her date to handle this puddle, that puddle, every puddle, for her.




When I worked in treatment, we called that co-dependent (both the puddle walker and the walked-on).
- November 27th, 2008, 12:33 pm
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FaeryLady Live long and eat Pudding

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Just a note to FaeryLady: I haven't said a thing about his behavior and if it's reasonable or not or if you should dump him or not. I'm doing what I was trained to do when working in treatment: Keep the focus on YOU because YOU can control how you feel and what you do. You have no control over him and what he does, so there is no point in discussing him. The point was whether or not it was right to expect chivalry and just what would have been the chivalrous act in this case.


As for people telling you to drop him, I would suspect that your views and expectations were formed as you grew up with your family and you've found friends with the same views and expectations, whether they were appropriate or not (and I'm not going to judge them) so it's not surprising that friends and family would say to drop him, since that's not far from your view that he fell short on this issue.


I will say that it seems you have expectations of him that are not in line with who he is as a person. That doesn't mean you're right or wrong and I'm not saying that to pass judgement. It just seems you and he have different expectations and for that reason alone, it might be appropriate to examine the relationship and decide if it would work to continue it.
You say that you were trained in 'Treatment'. Not sure what that means, but I can say that my Mom is a drug and alcohol counselor. She has 16 years clean and sober and is still active in all groups associated with that including codependency. I am very aware of how to focus on me and my situation.

My views came from my experiences rather than from family. And I think my friends and family have given me the advice that they have because they know me. Members here however, only know me for what I post. When it is said that I should just suck it up, my friends know that I already have. It is all a matter of perspective. I know that, and that is why I asked my question. I have gotten some good perspective here which is what I was looking for. But I also see that some are just projecting some of their own issues into my situation.

As for my expectations of him, I think you may be right. I have seen what I want and I am at a point in my life where I am tired of settling. I do like him, and I see some good potential with us, but there are other areas that we lack as a couple. I guess this is one. I also understand that he will have his own perspective on this. I am not the only one in this story. I guess we will see.
- November 27th, 2008, 03:23 pm
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