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neardc's Avatar

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Jacquesne wrote :
If I find it I'll try to see if I can afford it first and let you know .

And you are absolutely correct, neardc, my apologies. H.R. 3402-11 of the Violence Against Women and Department of Justice Reauthorization Act of 2005 states "(8) Nonexclusivity.-Nothing in this title shall be construed to prohibit male victims of domestic violence, dating violence, sexual assault, and stalking from receiving benefits and services under this title."

I think I have argued in favor of the actual policies and institutions created by the VAWA in the past. My problem has always been with the name. I suppose that may seem a little immature but why is it called the Violence Against Women Act? What if the Homeland Security Act, with the same internal writing, were called the Security Against Arab Terrorism Act? Wouldn't that be considered r*cist, even if the actual policies remained unchanged?

Just sayin'

Jacquesne

P.S. I'd like to point out that although my post got modded...twice...it still went through. Guess I'm not that bad

Hehehe.
Jacquesne wrote :
I think I have argued in favor of the actual policies and institutions created by the VAWA in the past. My problem has always been with the name. I suppose that may seem a little immature but why is it called the Violence Against Women Act?
You have to put these things in historical context. If it were proposed today, it would have a different title. It's hard to imagine today how much the climate has changed in the last 20 - 25 years; it hasn't been that long since domestic violence was even recognized as a crime. And, the focus of the initial legislation was on women because they were by far more often the victims, especially of lethal domestic violence (which is still the case). Here is a link to a report on the history of the Act prepared by the Congressional Research Service, a neutral body, that describes changes in the legislation over the years. As you can see, it covers a lot more than what people often seem to assume it was designed to do: http://holt.house.gov/pdf/CRSonVAWADec2005.pdf.
- June 29th, 2009, 05:40 pm
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IcecreamMoon wrote :
But I like crazy I just don't like insane so much...
Welcome to the fun house!
- June 29th, 2009, 05:46 pm
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neardc wrote :
Welcome to the fun house!
YouTube - They're Coming To Take Me Away Lyrics
- June 29th, 2009, 06:00 pm
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IcecreamMoon Nothing to see here at all...

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Jacquesne wrote :
If I find it I'll try to see if I can afford it first and let you know .

P.S. I'd like to point out that although my post got modded...twice...it still went through. Guess I'm not that bad

Hehehe.
I won't hold my breath then...
- June 29th, 2009, 06:06 pm
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IcecreamMoon Nothing to see here at all...

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neardc wrote :
Welcome to the fun house!
Well, being a fair-minded community leader that you are, you should warn people at the entry, not just entice them with pretty smilies

Otherwise, we may need to open a mental care facility house, right next to the fun house
- June 29th, 2009, 06:09 pm
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IcecreamMoon wrote :
Phobeous,
I wasn't taking down at you, but I certainly cannot look up to the point of view you presented in your previous post. And you were not talking about some men, you were talking about your personal beliefs, which I simply cannot agree with.

You decided to change the true definition of the term, simply because it suited you best, and I cannot not see a valid reason behind it at all.

You cannot just proclaim all feminists to be extremists. Most of us are not. Just as you can't proclaim all Germans to be fascists, or all Muslims to be terrorists. I've met plenty of people of both nationalities, and most of them were lovely, some not so lovely, but I don't change definitions based on a few people I've met.

That way of thinking promotes nothing but hate, more hate, agression and anger. Mix well together, give it a good shake, and we have a full blown war on our hands, with innocent bystanders getting hurt.

I'm a Feminist. To me it means having Equal Rights and nothing else. I really appreciate my right to vote, my right to get a decent education, a right to have a successful career. If it wasn't for Feminism, I would be cooking daily dinner instead, and I'm not a very good cook. And it also gives me a right to marry later in life because I want to marry the right man for all the right reasons (one of them is as crazy as love), not marry a guy who is just OK because I need him to support me or I wouldn't survive.

So, tell me again, how does a true feminist hurt you, or any other man, personally? Granted, there are extremists everywhere, not just in feminism. But you can't judge all of us negatively, and even go as far as change definitions, just because you've encountered a few extremists in your life.

I'll tell you a personal secret, I don't like feminists extremists either. I work hard for my money, but I also love being a woman. And I really, really like the bras my career allows me to purchase on my own, and I would absolutely hate to burn them just to prove a point.

You and I cannot change the world. But the world is full of people like you and I. And if you are seeing what I'm seeing, it's not a very pretty place today, largely because there is so much hate and anger around, based on lack of knowledge and understanding of certain terms. And I, for one, would rather fight the fight against it than join it. It's not that difficult to ask questions and learn, but it sure is easy to jump to unreasonable conclusions. And again, it is a shame, and I would really prefer if intelligent people, like yourself, didn't do that.
Well, I am male, so I fall into 'some' men. Yes, I was sharing my point of view. However, I know others also shy away from the term feminist because of the negative connotations

Second, I am not attempting to change the definition; it has been interpreted by some in the public opinion, to be as I described. And I, as one person, am not able to significantly alter it.

I am not attempting to proclaim all feminist to be extremists; nor am I angry at even the extreme feminists who have contributed to this opinion (which is where I think the blame for this definition lies). I simply would prefer not to deal with it.

Which is why, all other things being equal, I would shy away from dating someone who feels the need to announce that they are a feminist. I wouldn't like it if my personal pronouns were regularly gender corrected. I wouldn't like it if my polite courtesies were viewed as insults. Dating is hard enough as it is, without adding in political correctness.

In fact, this is exactly the type of conversation I do not want to have with my potential soul mate on a first date. Your original response to me sounded like you were implying I was ignorant and unintelligent. If you reread it I am sure you can tell where I came off with that impression.

Standard disclosure: No feminist were harmed in the writing of this response.
- June 29th, 2009, 06:13 pm
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1994 wasn't that long ago but I see your point. Please tell me 1994 wasn't that long ago because I remember 1994 =).

Again, I bring up my poorly worded variation on the Homeland Security Act simply because if we say the majority of anti-U.S. violence is perpetrated by a certain ethnic group we run into the same issue. I don't see how most of these crimes happening against women changes the fact that unless all of these crimes are against women it should be gender neutral. Considering the document itself is gender neutral I don't see why the name has to be gendered.

To me it's more of a negative against women than against men. Why do I say that? Because it implies domestic violence is women's problem. Not just as the victims but as the perpetrators (which is obviously not true). There's no reason why men should not be just as involved in preventing violence against women than women should be. By creating the gendered title they alienated a great many men who feel like the "enemy." It makes us not want to have anything to do with it which is counter-productive.

To get back on topic one of the biggest mistakes I think interest groups make is exclusion of the majority (which I'm fairly certain I'm considered). I not supposed to be feminist. I can't be part of the NAACP. Technically I can join these organizations but I'm always that weird white guy whom the group is supposed to be fighting against. Why would I join an organization that cites me as the bad guy? It would kind of kill the meetings about how to better advance the situation of women or African Americans if I'm sitting in the room. Perhaps it's my own perception but I would definitely feel unwanted and unwelcome in these groups.

So how does alienating the supposed "most powerful" group help your cause? If white guys have as much power as everyone keeps telling me I have couldn't I use it to actually help people? The truth is I'd like to. But being made to feel like an evil oppressive force doesn't exactly endear me to the cause.

Arguably these are simply my own biases and do not reflect the actual message of such organizations. But I can guarantee I'm not the only white guy that notices this perception. I hear the argument all the time about how white guys think that just because prejudice isn't institutionalized (as much) anymore it doesn't mean that discrimination doesn't exist. That concept works both ways. You can't tell me I'd be welcomed with open arms at a NAACP meeting. When I go to the NAACP website I don't see a picture of a single white dude anywhere. Why on earth would I even imagine trying to show up at a rally? If I donated money would I be a good person or simply another rich white guy trying to buy out the African American community? If I'm going to be looked at negatively no matter what why bother?

I'm not trying to criticize the NAACP or feminists or any other activist group (except PETA...take that, political correctness). I'm trying to point out that I believe these organizations are shooting themselves in the proverbial foot by using exclusive terminology. The National Association for Equality of All People or the National Organization for the Equality of All Genders might make white guys a bit more willing to think "hey, I won't be treated like a diabolical creep if I show up and lend my support. I'm a person and a gender. Sounds good to me!"

Instead I have to look at the horrible things all my ancestors did and repent for my many sins. This idea doesn't make me very sympathetic. Call it my future- and present-oriented cultural values. Call it my invisible knapsack of privilege. Call it whatever you want but as long as divisions between race contain a concept of "us vs. them" equality will never exist.

Jacquesne

P.S. I'm not saying race or ethnicity are pointless or that we should live in a "colorblind" society. I'm saying that the entire concept of race and ethnicity as being positive or negative needs to go. Culture is. It isn't better or worse. It simply is.
- June 29th, 2009, 06:21 pm
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IcecreamMoon Nothing to see here at all...

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I'm allowing you a lot of slack, Mr, just because of your "Crazy in Love" state of mind... But apparently, the Moon does affect all kinds of tides.
- June 29th, 2009, 06:22 pm
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IcecreamMoon Nothing to see here at all...

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D_Lion wrote :
You probably have already. (Assuming you've had dates.)
And thanks, Froggie.
As much as we try to fool you guys, I'm really glad that some of you are able to see through the facades we so carefully assemble for you.

I need to get out of this thread, where is the nearest playground?
- June 29th, 2009, 06:32 pm
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cameracollector Baby's snoozing on the sofa....

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Phobeous wrote :
What exactly is it that you do not think I understand? That I do know what a male chauvinist is? The ultra-extreme feminists have a very low opinion of the male gender. There is not really, to my knowledge, a female gender specific equivalent to the term. What I said was not said in anger or meant to demean. If someone really wants to know what some men think when a women says she a feminist, this is what some are going to think. Thanks for talking down to me, you illustrate my point as well.
Are we really dredging up this tired old topic again?? sigh.

Phobeous, there may not be a female gender equivalent expression for male chauvinist. But please consider that there are also no male equivalents, really, for the terms sl*t, wh*re, trollop, wench, h00ker, tr*mp, bimb0, harl0t, hussy, fl00zy, or any of the other lovely words that have historically been used to belittle and demean women. So there's one phrase in the feminist lexicon that hurts your feelings? boo hoo. Get over it.

Don't want to date a feminist? Nothing says you should, or even ought, to. Just be forewarned that a certain segment of women will interpret your preference as being traditionalist (which it may or may not be). It might be confusing to many if you oppose feminism and equal rights/equal pay yet also say you don't want to support a wife and family.

As you can imagine, I'm a feminist. You might be surprised, however, to discover that my significant other considers himself a conservative Republican. Furthermore, he would be the first to say he's far from emasculated by being with a woman who's intelligent and financially independent. He is a treasure. But so am I.
- June 29th, 2009, 06:44 pm
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