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legend29 legend29 is online now
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Seems like Sotomayor's "race ruling" was reversed by the Supreme Court. .

Court rules for white firefighters over promotions
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_supreme_court_firefighters_lawsuit

According to the article, "the Supreme Court ruled Monday that white firefighters in New Haven, Conn., were unfairly denied promotions because of their race, reversing a decision that high court nominee Sonia Sotomayor endorsed as an appeals court judge.Her ruling was unfair to many white firefighters".

Finally...some sanity!
- June 29th, 2009, 09:09 am
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cameracollector cameracollector is offline
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First of all, legend, the SCOTUS vote was split 5-4, which means there's hardly a consensus about the issue. Second, Sotomayor was one of three judges on the appellate court that produced the ruling the question. It was not her ruling alone. Why so eager to throw eggs at her?
- June 29th, 2009, 09:38 am
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legend29 legend29 is online now
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cameracollector wrote :
First of all, legend, the SCOTUS vote was split 5-4, which means there's hardly a consensus about the issue. Second, Sotomayor was one of three judges on the appellate court that produced the ruling the question. It was not her ruling alone. Why so eager to throw eggs at her?
LOL...I read the article and recognize it wasn't a landslide, and it wasn't just her that ruled that way! Just sticking with the artcle and the 'spin' most pundits are putting on her and the ruling (you really gotta lighten up and laugh sometimes, because politics has become extremely amusing in the last 20 years...like we ever see any real change...yeah, right!)!

I am just happy for the ruling and am thrilled that the test still stands and everyone may now be able to get a fair shake. I don't want anyone glaring at me thinking I got my position in any job based on my race or ethnicity, because I have paid my dues and worked hard for everything I have earned in my life. Dos racisn still exist?... of course it does! Are there careers where affirmative action may still be needed to ensure economic equality for all?... yes! There is no easy solution to solving the problem of economic equality. Just wish there were sometimes.

In regards to Sotomayor...I don't think she is the best candidate for the Democrats. She has way too many rulings that swing against her.

But then...whattaIknow...I don't spend my entire waking hours on the politics thread, and have pulled away from watching the pundits. Way too much finger-pointing, and not enough solutions for my taste! Lately I am becoming more ambivalent about politics and politicians. Nothing ever really seems to change when either party comes into office. Middle class still get to pay the most taxes and the rich keep getting richer off the blood, sweat, and tears of the masses.

*sigh*
- June 29th, 2009, 01:51 pm
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What is sad is that this is nowhere near a definitive move on affirmative action.

There is nothing in the ruling that an employer can not seek qualified minority applicants, due to their being a minority, or take extra efforts to prepare them to meet the qualifications.
- July 1st, 2009, 07:56 pm
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legend29 legend29 is online now
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D_Lion wrote :
What is sad is that this is nowhere near a definitive move on affirmative action.

There is nothing in the ruling that an employer can not seek qualified minority applicants, due to their being a minority, or take extra efforts to prepare them to meet the qualifications.
Yes...I have been listening to the 'spins' of several pundits on this topic and they have said as much.

I'm not being facetious, but I don't understand why it would take extra efforts to prepare minority applicants to meet specified qualifications.

My son has been struggling to pass an IT exam for the past year since he came home from the Navy. I tell him to try harder and study more. I even bought him the books that would help him pass the exams. Hopefully, he will pass this third time coming up for the exam...and if he doesn't, he will try again until he does pass.

Furthermore, the New York State teachers' exams can be very difficult to pass for some people. But there is no system for affirmative action with teaching exams. You either pass it or you don't. I have a best friend that is a sub teacher for the past 3 years because she has taken the exam six times and still can't pass it. But since the exams are gauging basic knowledge in a content area or areas, it is only fair that if one cannot pass the teach, he/she should not be teaching. I took both tests the same day (totally unheard of) and passed them both with flying colors. However, when I was planning to relocate to Massachusetts,I had to take their state exam, which is the Praxis. I am still trying to pass the Math portion of the Praxis I (a teacher exam accepted in most states except NY....we have our own exam in this state, and even if you have certification in another state, most states do not have reciprocity and you must still take their state exam or the Praxis.).

Basic math is not my forte, and I have struggled with it most of my life...(I hate basic math and tend to do better with algebra,geometry and stats).But I keep studying and keep trying. I missed the test last time by 2 points...need to study more about percentages...ack! So imagine if teacher exams had a quota system and because of my race I was given certification anyway and a job teaching. It would be unfair to other people that passed the exam but could not get a job based on their race.

Lastly, I think it sends a mental image that somehow minorities (I hate that term...but for argument sake I use it!) are not as intelligent as whites and thus must be given special privilges to balance the playing field. This sends us all the way back to the dark ages of the infamous 'Bell Curve' study. That idea does not sit well with me at all.

However, I am not naive, and recognize that if it were a perfect world, we wouldn't need quotas...people would be judged on their qualifications and abiltiy..not the color of their skin. But..alas...we still are forced to have these conversations even in the new millenium.
Last edited by legend29; July 2nd, 2009 at 05:44 am.
- July 2nd, 2009, 05:41 am
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ThePriestess ThePriestess is offline
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legend29 wrote :
In regards to Sotomayor...I don't think she is the best candidate for the Democrats. She has way too many rulings that swing against her.
We should hope she's not the best candidate "for the Democrats" ... she's being nominated for the Supreme Court, which we don't want ruled by politics (even though it will certainly have some influence). Instead, we should consider whether she's a good candidate "for the nation".

legend29 wrote :
Lastly, I think it sends a mental image that somehow minorities (I hate that term...but for argument sake I use it!) are not as intelligent as whites and thus must be given special privilges to balance the playing field. This sends us all the way back to the dark ages of the infamous 'Bell Curve' study. That idea does not sit well with me at all.
Applying the situation solely to one of "intelligence" would be erroneous though ... while I do not like the need for such measures, the system was (and still is) biased against racial and ethnic minorities. In a recent study, it was found that white applicants with a felony conviction were more likely to receive a call-back for a job than black applicants without a felony conviction (the disparity was even more significant when like convictions were compared) ... this has a significant impact on job opportunity - affecting income, which then affects educational opportunity for children ... serving to reinforce stereotypes (such as intellectual ability) and continuing the cycle of racial discrimination.

We have to break the cycle somehow.
Last edited by ThePriestess; July 2nd, 2009 at 08:23 am.
- July 2nd, 2009, 08:12 am
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ThePriestess wrote :
1) We should hope she's not the best candidate "for the Democrats" ... she's being nominated for the Supreme Court, which we don't want ruled by politics (even though it will certainly have some influence). Instead, we should consider whether she's a good candidate "for the nation".


2) Applying the situation solely to one of "intelligence" would be erroneous though ... while I do not like the need for such measures, the system was (and still is) biased against racial and ethnic minorities. In a recent study, it was found that white applicants with a felony conviction were more likely to receive a call-back for a job than black applicants without a felony conviction (the disparity was even more significant when like convictions were compared) ... this has a significant impact on job opportunity - affecting income, which then affects educational opportunity for children ... serving to reinforce stereotypes (such as intellectual ability) and continuing the cycle of racial discrimination.

We have to break the cycle somehow.
1) If you believe that is how it is done ... I have some ocean front property for sale for you in Nebraska. Taking a quick look at the potential nominees ... It appears none had Republican leanings ... Actually, looking again at the list, it appears that there was 7 women and 2 men (according to ABC) as potential nominees.

2) There is a fairly easy way to fix that ... But it does start with the individual ... Don't commit the felony in the first place ... Also, do you happen to have a link for the study? I take most studies' claims with a table of salt ... The parameters used can prove anything the study is trying to show.
- July 2nd, 2009, 10:10 am
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Rand_011 wrote :
1) If you believe that is how it is done ... I have some ocean front property for sale for you in Nebraska. Taking a quick look at the potential nominees ... It appears none had Republican leanings ... Actually, looking again at the list, it appears that there was 7 women and 2 men (according to ABC) as potential nominees.

2) There is a fairly easy way to fix that ... But it does start with the individual ... Don't commit the felony in the first place ... Also, do you happen to have a link for the study? I take most studies' claims with a table of salt ... The parameters used can prove anything the study is trying to show.
My thoughts exactly. One would have to be truly naive, or not have followed the bruha surrounding Supreme Court nominees in the past 20 years. It is a very important decision because President's choose nominees that have their basic beliefs and tenets (I mean if you believe all the screeching when Rehnquist, Scalia, Souter, Ginsburg and Thomas, and O'Connor were nominated...whew!)

I don't remember much of a stir when the last judge was nominated (Alito) but I could be wrong or my memory could be failing me...again!)

When Reagan nominated Sandra Day O'Connor, his own suporters criticized him because anti-abortion and religious groups felt she she might not overturn Roe v.s. Wade. That was a a very strange nomination because even though she was a Republican, even Reagan said he was not sure about her stance on abortion and how she would vote if the issued arised. Sandra Day O'Connor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thus, the nominations for Supreme Court Justices has always been a political move (except in the case with Reagan). Still shaking my head over that one..but O'Connor proved worthy of the Conservative Right-wing cause until her retirement in 2005 as a strong supporter against affirmative action, though she upheld a decision about unfair admission practices based on race (she later stated in 2008 that she felt affirmative action should continue). According to Wikipedia, conservatives liked her....but no one was ever really sure how she would vote at times. She was indeed a conundrum!
- July 2nd, 2009, 10:57 am
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ThePriestess ThePriestess is offline
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Rand_011 wrote :
1) If you believe that is how it is done ...
I guess you completely skipped over "(even though it will certainly have some influence)". My comment was not a claim politics were not involved, but that we should want its involvement to be limited as much as possible.

Rand_011 wrote :
There is a fairly easy way to fix that ... But it does start with the individual ... Don't commit the felony in the first place
Even if when they didn't have a felony record, they still received less call-backs than others who did have a felony record.

Rand_011 wrote :
Also, do you happen to have a link for the study? I take most studies' claims with a table of salt.
The Mark of A Criminal Record, Devah Pager, American Journal of Sociology, 108(5). The University of Chicago Press © 2003.

http://www.northwestern.edu/ipr/publ...3/pagerajs.pdf
- July 2nd, 2009, 08:19 pm
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What's really sad is that 4 Supreme Court members felt it was ok to discriminate against people because of their race.

As Chief Justice John Roberts said in another ruling: (Loosely quoted)

"The way to stop discrimination against people because of their race is to stop discriminating against people because of their race."

Simple concept.
- July 3rd, 2009, 07:43 pm
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